Talk:Juju
Regarding the Vault Would the mansion vault count as a time artifact? Crowbar's crowbar did break it open/destroy it, so it must have been a time artifact just like the egg timer and the crowbar.Khan Freeman 23:03, February 19, 2010 (UTC) :It is very possible. ::The handing of objects such as these -- regardless of the original post's 2010 origin -- remains something of particular, if not growing uncertainty. Lil' Cal, for example, shows all tell-tale signs of, uh, Juju(dom?) if the comments of Caliborn are deemed true; the canon(icity?) of certain Fucia hued revelations, I might add, were by no means said with complete certainty either. Should these temporal artifacts be viewed as Jujus? If so, should they all, including "unconfirmed" ones? Should the items broken by Juju Breakers be classed Jujus? Should the Cairo Overcoat, Magic Cueball, Tumour, and other unique entities be presumed Jujus? I took the liberty of creating separate "Confirmed" and "Suspected" subsections upon merging the two articles, yet it seems to have created a particularly sloppy one in full. Furthermore, I seem to have inadvertently made a few biased implications during the merge -- such as tying the destruction of Vriska's cueball to a suspected removal all other renditions of the apparent Juju owned by Doc Scratch -- in an attempt to link some "suspected" Jujus in with the article, but am not sure these pseudo-conspracy theories are a positive and community accepted move. Sorry for the wall of text, but what is the future of this article? Is it even possible to classify items? --ImpliedFibre (talk) 02:26, September 27, 2012 (UTC) Merge proposal I'd prefer to keep the pages separate, using the main juju page to focus on jujus in general, while keeping the in-depth coverage of the Felt's jujus on the Time Artifacts page, and documenting the details of Calliope and Caliborn's jujus on their pages unless they become significant enough to merit their own articles like Lil' Cal or The Tumor. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 10:49, September 18, 2012 (UTC) :You do make a good point for keeping them seperate; maybe a rename to "Felt jujus" instead? I don't recall Time Artifacts ever being a canon name, just a name used to describe them in lack of anything else, now that we actually have a name we should use it. I guess the arguement against that would be only 4 out of 7 were confirmed as jujus, however given the whole Caliborn/ deal for all we know the Cairo Overcoat (or part of it) could be Calliope or Caliborn's juju. But that is just speculation but thought it was worth mentioning. The Light6 (talk) 14:48, September 18, 2012 (UTC) ::I just Googles it, they're referred to as "temporal artifacts" on this page. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 21:29, September 18, 2012 (UTC) OK so apparently Die's voodoo doll and pins are now confirmed jujus, that makes 5 for 7. The Light6 (talk) 03:04, September 24, 2012 (UTC) :::@Gordon: That doesn't make them not jujus, any more than being mammals excludes humans from being classified as animals. They are jujus that, as it happens, have temporal effects. They are still classified as jujus. And one page in HS calling them temporal artifacts does not outweigh two walkaround pages calling them jujus, which takes priority over that one page on the grounds of both number of pages and recency of pages ::::I never suggested that they weren't jujus, I was just pointing out that "temporal artifacts" is an official term for the Felt's jujus (unlike "time artifacts", which seems to be an unofficial fan term). I'm suggesting that we should keep the extensive coverage of the felt's temproal artifact jujus on a separate page so it doesn't clutter up the main juju page. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:14, September 25, 2012 (UTC) :::::The juju page is fairly well laid out, and already has most of these items on it. This page is increasingly redundant with every one confirmed as a juju. Literally the only reason this page has to keep existing is that there is one object* on it that is not yet explicitly confirmed to be a juju. I suspect this will be remedied in a week or so. :::::And anyway, nothing whatsoever confirms that "temporal artifacts" is a canon name. A canonically used description, but not necessarily a canon technical term :I am going to side with SN, the arguement about cluttering up the juju page is moot since they are all described there anyhow meaning the merge is basically complete regardless, it means this page is redundant, and when we have a more detailed page which also has the most accurate name given current knowledge there is little reason to keep this page. The Light6 (talk) 12:14, September 25, 2012 (UTC) Cal's Eyes So I found a very interesting theory. Thoughts? 01:27, February 4, 2013 (UTC) :Bumping this because a lot of edits were made to other pages in the meantime and this got kinda buried. 18:36, February 4, 2013 (UTC) Intangible Homestuck Logo Juju Upon rereading Homestuck linearly since the most recent update, I've noticed that John's disembodied hand has, in fact, appeared on all the pages shown to be affected by him having stuck his hand through Lord English's Homestuck Logo Juju. I don't recall seeing John's hand in any of these pages before (I could be wrong, but I don't think so), which would seem to indicate that, however pointlessly and ineffectually, John has managed to alter the entire timeline leading up to the current point in the adventure (by affecting timelines wherein both the kids' and the trolls' universes had already been destroyed, and even affecting the Furthest Ring at "earlier points in time" relative to its known history and present state), which I think many previously believed to be impossible (especially for someone who wasn't a Time player - and after the Cascade, to boot). This in turn would seem to indicate that this Juju grants the ability to rewrite an Alpha timeline to the user, then leaves them to deal with the consequences. The conesquences seem to include: unexpectedly phasing out of your local environment, randomly phasing through time and between Universes, and getting punched by Cans. This information could potentially also be added to the Time Shenanigans page, and at any rate seems to encourage speculation. 01:43, May 11, 2013 (UTC) :I believe you mean the Scratch. Cascade is not the name of any game mechanic. Also, we knew immediately that the pages had in fact been retconned to include his arm. And he wasn't changing the alpha timeline, that's the way it 'always was'. 03:57, May 11, 2013 (UTC) :I was specifically talking about the Cascade sequence (which followed a particular Scratch, and resulted in the end of two Universes), as there have been several Scratches in the history of the game and spending time attempting to identify which Scratch in particular I was talking about would have detracted from the discussion I was trying to initiate. 02:56, May 12, 2013 (UTC) :: That's highly debatable. It depends on wether or not Hussie adding the arms is meant a retroactive retcon that says "okay just assume this has always been the case, even when you first read it. The version you read first just never happened and wasn't right", or if it meant in the sense of "John just basically changed the homestuck Canon with that thing. The thing you read back then was valid, but now it's different bacause of this Juju". I got the impression it was the latter. 08:53, May 11, 2013 (UTC) :::Maybe, but it would be different for new readers. Regardless, you're right, it is in fact highly debatable. I was just operating on the assumption that any changes to the Alpha timeline would cause an offshoot, but who knows. 16:37, May 11, 2013 (UTC) ::::Yeah, everything that is not supposed to happen creates a doomed timeline. But I think the idea being proposed here is that the Juju actually changes what "counts" as the alpha timeline. I don't know. It's debatable as well if John's hand's appearing even counts as a significant change. Maybe we'll get to know more about this sometime, but atm it's all a bit unclear. 18:51, May 11, 2013 (UTC) :::::I think this quote offers some perspective. :::::: :::::: :::::It seems to imply that John is changing the alpha, or it could be a meta-joke about how the story was ret-coned aka a meta-joke that since the alpha timeline is the way things always are that changing it means it was always changed and thus nothing was changed because it was always that way, hence retcon, despite the fact it wasn't that way before. Given that the juju has clear meta-properties (being an actual transparent image) I would say the whole situation is meant to be and we are meant to take meta-events into account when considering the actions/properties of the juju. - The Light6 (talk) 04:14, May 12, 2013 (UTC) :::::First, there's the fact that "Alpha" can also mean "Transparent" in Photoshop (which is another potential joke being made here, as well as an allusion to John's former title of Heir Transparent). :::::I'd like to add that John spontaneously crossing between multiple points - both inside (Alternia) and outside of Universes (LOWAS, Caliborn's Medium) - at first glance seems to imply that this juju provides the ability to render the "inviolable" properties of an Alpha timeline, as we know them, sort of irrelevant. More importantly, the juju allowed John to (accidentally) insert himself into others' Alpha timelines by crossing into their realities. :::::But, considering this juju is a MacGuffin that's kept Vriska and company on its trail for a relative eternity, and the fact that Vriska noticed some local turbulence circumstantially simultaneous with John's meddling with it, any substantial altering of one or more Alpha timelines might have in fact had serious repercussions, and this would seem to imply there's a gravity to the juju's effects that have not yet been realized. On that note, I've just noticed it now that I look at it again, but the shape of the SBURB icon and its effects suddenly seem to have a lot to do with the fenestrated walls and their inexplicable links to multiple points in canon. 06:21, May 12, 2013 (UTC) Possible Juju Do you think Doc Scratch/Hussie's magnum cueball gun could qualify as a potentional juju? User:B.Gonne 18:22, July 28, 2013 (UTC) :Maybe, but I'm not sure. The cueball itself totally could, though. Because While it's unclear whether Scratch and Hussie's magnum is the same one Calliope has (which brings into question whether or not only one exists), I wouldn't be surprised if every cueball in the story was the same one all along. 22:07, July 28, 2013 (UTC) Suckers Would the three suckers be considered seperate jujus or all one juju? If the former couldn't one posses the 2 regular suckers and the spiral simultaneously? The3rdplayer (talk) 03:41, December 6, 2013 (UTC) :Yes, no, and sort of. The Green and Red Suckers are separate jujus. The spiral sucker is those two combined, but that doesn't mean it isn't a juju unto itself. To use characters as an analogy; Erisolsprite is two different characters combined but that does mean Erisol isn't his own character. However the juju rules and such would suggest (and has been demonstrated) that there is only 1 Green Sucker, 1 Red Sucker, and 1 Spiral Sucker. As the Green and Red Sucker make up the Spiral Sucker, and inversely the Spiral Sucker is composed of them, both states cannot exist simultaneously. - The Light6 (talk) 03:36, December 6, 2013 (UTC) ::Actually they could by doing this: obtain the code for both suckers, combine into spiral sucker, alchemize red and green suckers and keep them very far away from each other. Thus all 3 suckers exist. The3rdplayer (talk) 03:41, December 6, 2013 (UTC) :::Except the juju rules would probably prevent that. When one sucker was alchemised the "original" disappeared. Trying to cheat like that probably wouldn't work. Rather say you had the Spiral Sucker and alchemised the Green Sucker, the Spiral Sucker would probably change back into the Red Sucker. :::Take Lil Cal as an example of how trying to cheat jujus doesn't work. Lil Cal "started" in B1, when he started he already had Caliborn's soul in him and then went on a long circuitous path to B1 Earth, back to the B1 session, then to the A2 session and Gamzee, and finally to the B2 session which lead to Caliborn's soul possessing B2 Jack Noir. However when the scratch happened, Lil Cal travelling to Earth was duplicated across both timelines, in violation of the juju rules. Despite Lil Cal possessing Caliborn's soul when he arrived in B2 via the Reckoning he was mysteriously empty, he then went on to come into the possession of Caliborn so that Caliborn could put his soul into him in the first place. :::The point is that jujus have rules and they have ways to prevent those rules being broken, you are suggesting a way to break the rules, something that the jujus would likely prevent. - The Light6 (talk) 03:52, December 6, 2013 (UTC) :::: 1. Not a rule in paradox space would be broken if the spiral sucker is a separate juju. 2. Could you say spoilers next time you list the story of a significant thing like that? 3. Your example is flawed because Cal is nothing like this scenario because hes only one juju. These are 2-3 different jujus. The3rdplayer (talk) 04:02, December 6, 2013 (UTC) :::::Except it is composed of two jujus, and these are juju rules, not paradox space rules, some jujus even have canon altering powers. The rules dictating jujus apply to all of them, that is why they are called juju rules. And I just said, the spiral juju is not an independent juju it is made of two others, they still exist in it, as per my Erisol example. Also spoilers? You should not be on the wiki if you haven't caught up, like going on a wiki and asking questions when you have not caught up is the worst possible idea. - The Light6 (talk) 04:09, December 6, 2013 (UTC) ::::::Jujus are not exempt from the laws of paradox space. Nothing can be exempt from the laws of paradox space no matter how hard anything tries. Also whether or not the spiral sucker is considered a separate juju seems to be what this entire argument hinges upon so that needs to be clarified. The3rdplayer (talk) 04:17, December 6, 2013 (UTC) :::::::Since you appear to not be caught up on Homestuck, given your mention of spoiler I will try to be short but: Jujus do have powers that appear to violate the laws of paradox space, we have seen jujus actually do it. :::::::And the spiral sucker is not a separate juju, it is two other jujus combined, this was never in question. - The Light6 (talk) 04:22, December 6, 2013 (UTC) ::::::::If jujus are exempt from the rules of paradox space then they could very well be used to destroy paradox space by jacking up its timelines and thus ending all existence. Something that would not be allowed by paradox space so either they at least have some laws preventing this from occurring or it just hasn't happened yet. The3rdplayer (talk) 04:38, December 6, 2013 (UTC) ← Resetting indent Several jujus have been implied to have the power to destroy or severely screw up paradox space, that is something already established in canon, so I am not sure what your exact point is. - The Light6 (talk) 04:43, December 6, 2013 (UTC) :Even if they can destroy paradox space it would never be allowed through indirect control. Even if paradox space can't control them directly it can control everything else around them to manipulate said jujus. For a juju to even have the potential to destroy paradox space would require a extremely powerful living juju. And even then paradox space wont go down without one hell of a fight. The3rdplayer (talk) 04:51, December 6, 2013 (UTC) ::You do know what the ultimate weapon does right? The juju? Because based off your arms question I am not sure you should be asking these questions unless you are asking people to spoil stuff. - The Light6 (talk) 05:14, December 6, 2013 (UTC) :::Nobody ever said Paradox Space didn't plan for its own eventual end. (And no, that isn't a spoiler, it's entirely theory at this point. The basis of the theory would include some major spoilers though.) Some Jujus may break the rules of Paradox Space, but that doesn't mean Paradox Space doesn't "know" what these Jujus are capable of and didn't take this information into account. 06:26, December 6, 2013 (UTC)